Dave Rendall, author of The Freak Factory: Making Employees Better By Helping Them Get Worse, joined the show recently. You can listen to our conversation here.
This is from his website:
About
As a boy, David was told he’d never amount to anything because he couldn’t sit still, he was a terrible listener, and he wouldn’t stop talking. He listened to the criticism, did his best to sit still, stop talking and listen, and studied counseling psychology. The result? He was unhappy, unsuccessful and never worked as a counselor.
So David started the Freak Factory, realizing that his supposed flaws were actually strengths. Now he’s standing up and talking for a living, and he’s spoken to over 200 organizations large and small in the last couple of years about how to get the most out of yourself and your employees.
Dave walks his walk. He celebrates his weaknesses. He’s restless. He can’t sit down. He’s impatient. He’s always talking. He’s a bad listener.
So-o-o. He used those as markers to point him to his strengths: author, consultant, speaker, professor, marathon runner, dad.
That makes him a great radio guest, also.
Dave, how are you? Thank you for being on the show.
I don’t encourage stalkers but where are you on the web and how can people follow you?
The best place, the one stop to find me is my website, drendall.com. It’s got links to facebook, Youtube, Twitter, Linkedin...links to my blog. That’s the best place to find me and jump off to your favorite social media.
You’re a professor now. And in addition to molding young minds, what cool project are you working on right now?
There’s two things I’m working. Earlier this year I started doing standup comedy at a local comedy club. I’m enjoying that. Clips from that are on Youtube. You can find it at youtube.com/drendall. That’s been good; it challenges me in a new way but keeps me sorta in the speaking world. It takes advantage of the fact that I got into trouble my whole life for making people laugh in class and now I’m getting to do it in front of an audience that expects me to do that.
The other thing I just started is a new blog called the Automatic Speaker. I’m trying to take what I’ve learned over the last 6 years in building my speaker business and share it with other folks. I’ve had former students and others who have asked me to mentor them in building their speaking business. I’m using the blog to formalize that process and even understand what I’m doing a little better.
The idea is that if you ever read the book the Automatic Millionaire, David Bach’s idea is that you need to put your retirement and financial stuff on cruise control. If you expect you’ll work on it every month, you’re wrong. Come it with some automatic, routine, ways to get yourself moving in the right direction. How to create a business that doesn’t require you to constantly grind on it, make constant cold calls but instead a business where people constantly call you and ask you to speak.
My intro was a little long. I apologize. But your perspective is so refreshing. It’s creative and yet it’s supported with excellent data and logic. When did you begin to connect your journey discovering your weaknesses as they were called were actually signs of your strengths? And what was the moment you realized...the whole country’s going through much the same process?
When I was in college the Resident Director for men’s dorms came up to me and told me he’d like me to apply as a Resident Assistant. Up until that time I was pretty sure that I was the reason they had Residents Assistants and not the person who would be in charge of that. I was in trouble for a variety of things and never quite seen as a role model for any body else.
He said the very things that other people saw as problems as rebellious or as bad attitudes ...he saw as signs of leadership potential. He wanted to help me use my ability to influence others in a positive way. That was a way to frame it thatI had never heard before. Certainly no one had ever used with me before. And that got me thinking about myself and my characteristics in a new way which then started the journey to ultimately lead us to see that it’s not my story, but it’s true for all of us, for managers, for how you run a country.
Was that when you made it your mission to share your journey with others with your books, your blog, your speaking?
It probably wasn’t right away. I hadn’t realized I was a writer or a speaker. Sometime in college a professor told me I’d make a good teacher. Up until then I’d been so nervous to give a presentation my hands would shake...Eventually I realized I had always been a public speaker my whole life, but I’d just been getting in trouble for it, doing it from the audience instead of doing it from in front of the entire room.
I taught a class, stood in for a professor, one time. Gradually I had more opportunities to speak at my job at non-profit group. I would be asked to speak more often. Then when people would ask me to speak, the topic I was most passionate about was this Freak Factor, Freak Factory concept.
It’s something I’m passionate about. It’s not just a book I’m trying to write or a concept I’m trying to promote.
I love your book - The Freak Factory: Making Employees Better By Helping Them Get Worse.That title just has to tweak people’s noses a little bit, doesn’t it? What’s the most common responses when people see its title?
I think people are confused initially. But they’re also interested.
I was worried that people would think it was unprofessional or wouldn’t see the truth in it and reject it. But people are intrigued by it.
The most common response before people read it is misunderstanding.
I did this presentation for a human resource management groups here locally. The guy who introduced it obviously hadn’t read it but he had read the title. He told this whole story about overcoming your weaknesses and finding what’s wrong with you and fixing it.
That’s a common misunderstanding. People don’t read it the way it is written. They decide I’m talking turning your strengths into weakness or somehow overcoming obstacles or difficulties. That’s not really the message.
The message is that we perceive these things as weaknesses, but they’re actually strengths. It’s not something we have to do to them. It’s a perspective we have to change in how we look at them.
After that the response is incredibly positive. My speeches are always successful. I’m almost always asked to come back and do something else. People feel they have been given a new approach to make things better.
Our friend, Erika Andersen, also wrote a great book titled Being Strategic. In it she coined the phrase reasonable aspiration or hoped-for future. What was your reasonable aspiration or hoped-for future for writing The Freak Factory?
Well, maybe it’s not the reasonable aspiration or hoped-for future but what I’d really like to see is a management revolution. I’d really like to see us completely change how we treat people in organizations. Completely change the way we handle performance evaluations. Completely change the way we treat strengths and weaknesses. See where that leads us.
Evidence shows what we are doing isn’t work real well, isn’t productive. But we keep on doing it or doing more of it even though it’s not working well.
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A reasonable aspiration would be to see a few companies decide to turn their organizations into freak factories and to work with them on that process. That would be very satisfying to know that one or two companies had changed how they treat people, had become more productive and helped their employees become more fulfilled and live a better life. That would be satisfying.
How will you know you are making progress towards it? What metrics will you use to measure your progress?
One of the big ones for me is just stories coming back from people. People sending me emails. People talking to me. Just sorta anecdotal evidence. That’s the way I see if my other concepts are working for people. They tell me ‘Hey, Dave, thanks, this worked for me’.
Ever since I first published the ebook for The Freak Factory, a book publisher from the UK contacted me. He’s been working with me for how to apply this to his team and with his boss and in his organizations.
He’s asking a lot of tough questions. That helps me refine the concept. He’s trying to apply it in the real world. And he’s telling me the obstacles and barriers that he’s experiencing he finds in the real world.
And then having me help him answer questions. He believes it. But, he’s afraid others won’t.
It’s really been an exciting process to be involved in even in answering questions about how it applies to organizational culture and getting management buy-in. Hopefully more and more of that will spread.
Part of my challenge is to identify organizations who are already doing it. I don’t think anybody is doing it perfectly or doing everything.
If you’re going to adapt to people’s strengths and adjust to how they do things instead of forcing them to fit into a box then you have to rethink how you handle job descriptions.
If you look at W.L. Gore. They don’t even have job descriptions. So, they’re already starting from a base of saying let’s help people move to the things they are most invested in. Let’s let them spend time in the things they are most interested in, most committed to. Let’s allow people to avoid work that they don’t find enjoyable or interesting. They purposefully start with a lack of structure that allows people more flexibility.
Part of the challenge is to show real companies are doing bits and pieces of it. Help more people be less afraid of it and understand their company won’t implode.
We need to look at the outliers and freaks and see how we can copy that.
I’m a big fan of Bruce Springsteen since 1978. I read one quote of his that explained in part why his performances are so freakishly, consistently, outstanding. He said he sang each show to one person in the audience.
Who was that one person for you as you wrote this book? Describe that person you had in mind as you wrote The Freak Factory.
I think there’s probably two. The first person is the person who is already doing this and need some support for it. They’re are people already doing this. But they feel like they’re a weirdo. They don’t get support for it. It works on their team but they have a hard time moving it through the hierarchy. They are constantly being pressured by other people in their organization to take a more conventional approach.
What this does is like some kind of group therapy. There are other people out there who see things the same way.
The other person is the one who’s tired of employee performance evaluations and self-improvement plans. The person who’s tired of trying to fix people’s weaknesses. And they realize it just doesn’t work. They’re just done. They’re looking for a better way. it’s the person who’s recognized the limitation of the other approaches and would like to try something different.
In your book you describe two problems. What are those two? Those two problems cause a lot of problems downstream.
The most obvious problem is also a symptom. That problem is that people aren’t happy at work. People aren’t productive at work. There’s all sorts of stats out there that says 52% of people aren’t engaged with work. And 19% are actively disengaged which makes for a total of 71%...who come to work every day and aren’t particularly excited about what they do.
What it means to be actively disengaged is those people aren’t just wasting time, they are looking for ways to make the organization fail, they are looking for ways to sabotage the company’s goals.
Another statistic is 67% of people think about resigning their job on a regular basis. If I am I’m imagining I’m not going to be here in a few days or weeks, I’m not going to be doing the things I need to do to be effective.
Look at how many organizations are getting rid of social media access because they are worried people are goofing off and wasting their time. I have unlimited access to social media. But since I run the business I am productive when I need to be productive. I am taking ownership of it and am engaged with my work.
We have a productivity problem which we think is the main problem and and so we focus on fixing that problem.. But I think that is just the symptom of what I call the perspective problem. We think the employees are broken. That’s our belief system. We treat them as they are broken. That’s our behavior and how we manage them. We think they’re broken. We see them as broken. We treat them as broken and then we stand around wondering why they don’t work.
If you see people as broken and treat them as they are broken then they will act broken.
The real root of the problem is the way we perceive our employees. We come in with a mental illness model. We come with this diseased model, we come with this identifying weaknesses model and it pervades everything we do.
And we apply it to business. We spend all of our time identifying what is wrong with people. And then expect them to fix it. So people walk around feeling like failures, we remind them they’re failures and then we wonder why they are not succeeding.
I think the tow problems are the perspective problem and the productivity problem. We see people incorrectly. We treat them incorrectly. It leads to results that are productive or effective. We continue on and think a better evaluation program or incentive program would fix people when in fact it doesn’t.
I’m trying to show people how to overcome those two problems by creating a freak factory.
You share a lot of data in your book that are the result of these two problems. What are some of the data points in corporate performance that reflect the impact of these two problems?
It’s a good question and one I don’t have a good answer for. I’m not super data -oriented or super-quantitative or a super-detail-oriented person.
The reason I know this is an issue is every audience I speak to tells me this is an issue. They agree they have problems with productivity and engagement. It’s mostly anecdotal, intuitive. I’ve never met anyone who says no, my people are super-productive and engaged as they could be.
One point I always come back to is public corporations have generated a decline of over 75% in their return on assets over the past 45 years. That was included in The Shift Index of John Hagel and John Seeley Brown and their colleagues and discussed in John Hagel's book, The Power of Pull and Steve Denning’s book, The Leader’s Guide to Radical Management.
Would you say that the focus of management on correcting or controlling employee weaknesses has in turn made them weak?
Yeah, I think in the way we manage people and the way we manage our companies. When I do surveys with organizations and they get the results back and they want to see where the problems are, what they don’t do well and try to fix that. That would be the way to take them to the next level.
You talk about businesses generating a negative return on assets, the reality is businesses do things every day, Dan Pink’s new book, Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, says that business don’t do what science understands motivates people.
We do what other people are doing or telling us to do. We copy it and think whatj other’s are doing must work. What we’re missing is we’re not asking how those people are doing. Do you really want to be like that?
We have to be willing to be different, unusual. The direction everybody is going just isn’t that productive.
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People don’t have jobs right now. And we’re talking about how to create jobs.
Nobody’s asking how do we create businesses for all those people who are unemployed. the problem is supposed to be taht people don’t jobs. The real problem is people don’t have income.
A job is one place to create income. Self-employment is another way. Creating a business that creates jobs is another way to create income is another way which also creates income for other people.
Jobs are only 150 years old. We have the mindset that jobs are a way to make people happy, to give them income. We tell our kids to go to school and get good grades and grow up and get a good job. 150 years ago people called employment wage slavery. They thought it was the worst thing to do to sell your soul and your financial future to an employer who would take the profits and you would get a small piece of it. And yet now we’re told jobs has become the norm.
There’s a country-wide mindset that we should do what we have done, we should do what everyone else is doing. Instead of looking for unique solutions that would improve things.
Being a leader you offer solutions. And in your book you offer 4 strategies to correct these two problems. What are they?
I’ve adjusted them a bit in my recent speeches.
The first step is Awareness. We need to figure out what people’s strengths and weaknesses are. One of the beauties of my approach is our negative bias. We tend to see problems before we see solutions. We tend to see things first that are wrong or go poorly. If I ask you what your employees’ strengths are you would have a hard time answering that. But if I ask you what your employees’ weaknesses are most people would be able to answer those questions very quickly as we already have them written down somewhere.
The first step is we have to become aware of our employees’ weakness which we probably already are.
We have to resist the impulse to then try to fix it.
We move to the next step which is Acceptance. Apparent weaknesses are strengths in disguise. Peter Drucker in his book The Effective Executive, said "Strong people always have strong weaknesses, too."
Notice he didn’t say "sometime". He said always. Where there are peaks there are valleys.
What he’s saying is that people’s strengths come with weaknesses. People have really high spots but they also have really low spots. We need to be aware of them, step 1. And then accept them step 2.
I like to think of them as side effects. Just like powerful medications have powerful side effects we’ve all come to accept that’s the way things are and in order to get the benefits we have to put up with the side effects. People’s strengths are the medicine and their weaknesses are their side-effects.
The next step is Appreciation. Now, it’s not enough to say oh, I’m stuck with these people’s strengths and their weaknesses we want to see people succeed because of their weaknesses not in spite of them.
Paul Orfalea was the founder of Kinko’s and he recently sold it for $2.4 Billion and a lot of people say that despite his dyslexia and what he says in his book is that it was because of his dyslexia...
- because I couldn’t read and write I relied on my team to read and write for me;
- because I couldn’t read and write I created a voice mail system where people could share suggestions throughout the organization without it having to be filtered by anyone else;
- because I didn’t think I was smarter and better than anyone else because of my huge weaknesses I accepted the weaknesses of others and allowed people to be unique and be themselve;
- because I wasn’t perfect I didn’t expect anyone else to be perfect either.
So, here’s a man who ran a multi-billion, multinational, company who couldn’t read and write and he still can’t read and write and he allowed other people to be strong where he was weak and he allowed himself to be strong where others were weak and he appreciated in himself his weaknesses and appreciated in others their weaknesses. So we want to go beyond step three to Appreciation.
The next section includes 4 things you can do. The first one is Amplification. If I really believe that weaknesses are just strengths in disguise then I would ask you to go farther in that direction. I ran an ultra-marathon. And my Brother-in-Law came out and said “Dave you’re crazy. And, you’re awesome, too! “
In order to be awesome you have to be a little crazy.
The philosopher Seneca said
“There’s no great genius without a touch of madness.”
The whole problem is we are trying to hold people back to be less of themselves when what we ought to be doing with Amplification is help people become more of what they really are.
My favorite thing about that running story is for my whole life people told me I’m hyper-active. And when I’m a kid they told me that’s a problem; you need to fix it. But when I ran an ultra-marathon I went farther literally in that direction that people told me not to go then as an adult people told me “Wow I could never do that”.
So, now I’m getting praise for that thing I was criticized for in the past.
As managers we need to consider praising the things we criticize. Instead of saying you talk too much in meetings we could say you seem to have a lot to add I wonder if you could lead our meetings and help take us in a new direction or if someone is quiet in meetings say “You’re really quiet in meetings I’d have to imagine that you are listening to all the things people are saying and you’re reflecting on that. Let’s talk one on one after the meeting and let me listen to you in a quiet personal setting where you might be more comfortable.”
Allowing people to be more of themselves and pushing them in that direction instead of people pulling them the other way.
The next one is Alignment. We need to stop forcing people to try and fit in. When people find the right spot, when I’m a public speaker nobody ever asks me about my listening skills, when I’m running my own business nobody ever asks me if I’m good at taking orders.
It’s not just about being yourself and everybody has to just accept you for who you are. it’s about finding the place where people value that, where people need things we bring to the table and they’re not worried about the things we don’t.
The real magic in management is finding the spot, Drucker says “the real purpose of management is finding places where people’s strengths are effective and their weaknesses are irrelevant."
I think we see our job is plugging people in spots. But the genius in management is finding where people are most effective and moving them around in usc a way that they are able to be themselves.
The next step is avoidance where we really struggle. If we want people to be their best we have to let them be their worst. Moving them to the right spot seems to be an easy task except that it involves allowing that person to do things that everybody else has to do or we know is part of the job. To do things more is to do other things less. That’s where we have a lot of difficulty.
The last one is Affiliation. We need to create a team with complimentary strengths and weaknesses. The reality is we can’t expect everybody to be well-balanced, well-rounded. But we can create a team that is. How do you let some people do that and other people do this. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
Affiliation allows us to find the real value in teamwork. But what we find in organizations is 5 people who do the exact same thing. Everybody does things the same way at the same time and we call it a team but what it is is a group of clones doing the exact same thing everyday.
Which one is the most important? Which has the biggest impact?
I think it’s Alignment. There was a guy in the 1800’s named John Merrick. We know him as the Elephant Man. It’s a book and a movie, but a true story. For awhile he was in a freak show before they closed them down in England. And when he left the freak show he was fortunate enough to meet a doctor who took him and tried to help him and cared for him. And the first thing John asked the doctor was "Can you help me find an asylum for the blind? "
What he recognized was his weaknesses, his disability, would literally disappear if you put him in the right spot. Everything that was wrong with him would become invisible. Ironically those people who were blind could see him for who he really was. He was compassionate. He was kind. He was intelligent. He was well-read. He was a great guy but his appearance was horrible.
He knew that if you put him in the right spot where they couldn’t see his physical appearance he would fit in. He knew that with the right fit his weaknesses would disappear.
When I was studying to be a counselor, counselor’s sit and listen all day. All that would do would put a spotlight on my weakness. I don’t want to sit and listen all day because I have ideas, I have energy. I want to share. I want to teach. I want to help.
My weakness is I can’t sit still. My strength is I have energy and ideas and I want to help. When I became a college professor people are asking me for my opinions. Then I get to be myself, I am confident. I am energetic. It gives me an opportunity to be successful.
But it’s all about the right fit. I’m the same person. If you force me to be a counselor, every day of the week, force me to have session after session, listening to people all day, I’d seem incompetent, I’d seem unmotivated, I’d seem uninterested. Sooner or later you would fire me and say "Dave’s not a good employee" when there’s nothing wrong with me; I’m just in the wrong spot.
There’s a concept in psychology they call "fundamental attribution error". That we tend to assume that people’s behavior is related to their core characteristics. So we seem someone acting nervous in an interview we assume that they are nervous and they have something to hide instead of saying they are nervous and anybody would be nervous in an interview and the stakes are high.
We tend to say this person is a bad employee for doing a bad job. Maybe they’re in a bad spot. And in another place could actually be fantastic.
We lose the best people because we are not trying to them the best spot; we’re trying to get them to fit in.
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One of your f-words in the last strategy, the strategy of adaptation is fail. You write Allow employees to be the worst, so they can be the best. I like it. How can you perform at your best if you’re constantly worried about making a mistake. That just makes you weak from dividing your mind. But you take it one step further you encourage companies to allow them to be the worst. How’s that received by managers and leaders?
I think the best way to answer that one is to give an example of how that works in real life.
I was teaching a class and complaining about state farm insurance. This girl raised her hand and said I sell State Farm and you could move over to my agency and we could handle all the paperwork and it’ll be free what do you say? She sold me during class. She was a great salesperson. Sometimes great sales people are great at sales and bad at paperwork.
She came up to be about a year later and said she was having this trouble with her boss. Her boss was frustrated that paperwork wasn’t done right and things were missing and they needed to come up with a solution.
The classic solutions are to put her on a bonus plan and give her bonuses for turning things in on time and correctly and giving her penalties for turning them in late and send her to training her how to better manage her time, to put her on a performance plan and to have someone in the office teach her how to handle her paperwork better.
That misses the point that she’s a great salesperson and when you try to make her better the paperwork she’s losing time and opportunity. We all have limited time and energy. That’s a reality we all tend to overlook. The reality is we want well-rounded perfect people who are good at everything. But that misses the point that there’s only a limited amount of time and energy and you’re only going to get the best out of people when you’re allowed to let things go. And the things you should let go are your weaknesses. What her boss did is she did none of those things, she hired someone to do her paperwork.
What her boss figured out was that one man’s trash was another man’s treasure. She had a salesperson who was great at sales and there was probably someone out there who was good at filling out paperwork and loved doing it. They love the sameness of coming in and what to do and how to do it. And they could be hired at a reasonable wage. So she hired someone to do the paperwork.
So, now Kelly’s happy because she’s free to do more selling and not constantly reminded of what she stinks at. The new person is happy because she has a new job and the agency is happy because she’s making more money.
At some point we have to let things go if we’re going to let our employees be great.
Another f-word in the Adaptation strategy is Fire. If you love them, set them free. Most people don’t equate loving an employee with firing them. Explain what you mean by loving someone enough to fire them.
If you’ve come to the point that this is not the right fit for the person then if you love them the best thing you can do is to let them go.
There are plenty of stories of “I got fired and it was the best thing that happened to me. “ There’s a ton of great examples.
Sometimes people aren’t doing what I suggest in the Freak Factor. They’re trying to force themselves to fit in. You’re not trying to. They’re trying to put themselves in a spot where they don’t match.
Sometimes firing someone is the push they need to discover this is not good for me and provide the impetus to discover what they are good at.
I think sometimes if you truly care about this person then letting them to continue in this position where they’ll never be truly engaged, be happy, be fulfilled...so, instead of saying you’re not a good person you say this is not a good fit. But I think you have a lot of good skills but they are a better fit elsewhere.
Now. An email just came in. It’s from President Obama. He writes Tell Dave I love what he’s saying. I want him to meet with my economic advisors in the Oval Room next week. I want him to give me three steps to turn our country into a Freak Factory of genius citizens and employees, leaders and managers, innovators and operations experts.
What will you tell him?
I’ll do the classic politician thing and not give you the answer you asked for. I’ll give you one.
There’s a book out there called SWITCH: How to Change Things When Change is Hard, by the Heath brothers. They say when you are trying to make change, find the bright spots and clone them.
My advice to President Obama is really simple. Stop looking at all the problems. Stop looking at the problems with our educational system and businesses. Instead start asking
- "Where are the schools that are working and how can we copy them?"
The solution is to look at the schools, the educational offerings that are turning out people who are critical thinkers who are ready for the 21st century and ask how can we get more of them?
Do the same thing with business. Don’t ask what are the problems with business, how do we save businesses that are failing. The question is who’s starting businesses, who’s making money, why are they making money, what are they doing differently, how can we help people do more of this.
I had a great year in 2009 when people were saying the whole world is falling apart. I had a great year in 2008 when people were saying the whole world is falling apart. I expect to have a great year this year when people are saying the world is falling apart.
I’m using new media. I’m taking an entrepreneurial approach. I’m trying to adapt and be flexible.
But we don’t hear about that. We hear about Fortune 500 companies who made terrible decisions, about ripping people off and we try to fix that instead of looking at what is working.
Let’s look at what’s working and make it bigger instead of poo-pooing it and saying that will never work. We need to find where the bright spots are and clone them and look at what’s working to help people pay their bills, that’s getting people educated and find out how to get more of it.
Jim Rohn wrote that Leaders are readers. You’re a leader and I suspect an avid reader, also. What are you reading for work or fun or both!
For fun, I’m reading something from an Iowa native. Bill Bryson wrote At Home that goes through a history of how our homes work and our lives work and it’s a fascinating history of going through our houses, room by room, and how that room came to be and why we use it for what we use it.
I’m listening to The Upside of Irrationality: The Unexpected Benefits of Defying Logic at Work and Home by Dan Ariely. There’s a lot of material in there for the Freak Factor. What he does is he goes through and talks about how the irrational things we do that don’t quite make sense often have a very functional uses in our life, and are also very adaptive, even though we’d say it was irrational or stupid. He shows how much of what we do that doesn’t make sense are actually helpful in a variety of ways. It’s helpful to see things in a way we haven’t seen before.
Are you still running? When’s your next marathon?
I’ll run the Myrtle Beach marathon next February.
Where are you speaking where we can come see you?
I’m never really speaking where you can come see me. One of the ladies who saw me in tasmania has relatives in Pinehurst and I’m doing a talk in Pinehurst and asked them if these folks could come in and see me and they thought that was cool.
You can go to my website and click on the speaking schedule tab and see where I’m going to be and if I’m going to be in your area. I’m in Wisconsin next November and next March. I’m scheduled to be in Tasmania next May. I’m all around NC. So if you see me in your area, contact me and we can meet or I can see if you can sit in the back.
Remind us again where are you on the web.
My website is Drendall.com
Thanks, Dave!
