Matthew May joined the show recently to talk about his excellent new book: The Shibumi Strategy: A Powerful Way to Create Meaningful Change.
You can listen to our conversation here.
This is Matt's 2nd time on the show. Earlier we discussed his book In Pursuit of Elegance: Why the Best Ideas Have Something Missing.
When Matt's not writing great best-selling books, he's busy speaking with corporations, universities and governments around the world or writing for national publications such as USAToday, Design Mind, and MIT/Sloan Management Review. He has been featured and quoted in The Wall Street Journal, the New Yorker Magazine, and on National Public Radio.
Matt, thank you for being on the show. How are you this early morning?
I’m great. Thank you.
I don’t encourage stalking but I do encourage following. Where can our listeners follow you on the web?
Sorta the big three. The website is www.matthewemay.com. Facebook it’s Shibumi Strategy and on Twitter it’s matthewemay.
What cool project are you working on?
A cool part of this book promotion I’m working on is the iPhone ap for the book. It’s a side project but integrated into the book project. It should be imminent.
Let’s talk about your newest book The Shibumi Strategy: A Powerful Way to Create Meaningful Change. Great book. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
You wrote it as a fable. Why a fable? What did that format offer?
This is sort of a personal story. I really believe that people resonate with characters and storylines. I wanted to tell a personal story. I don’t think any straight ahead non-fiction narrative would tell the story as well as a good old story that has the arc of a journey to it. I wanted to explore a small format and branch out my writing and do it in a smaller, shorter, more user-friendly way.
Who did you write this for? Describe the reader you had in mind as you wrote this.
Interestingly enough, I had a very specific person in mind as I wrote this. This fable is an amalgam of experiences and real people facing real-life challenges. The particular person that I wrote it for, it started off as a much smaller story of someone who had faced a setback and made a breakthrough in facing that challenge.
And I wrote it and low and behold my agent got a hold of it and decided to pitch it as a book.
The publisher wanted to publish it. We expanded it to include a few more principles But there was a specific person in mind that it was written for.
That’s important. When you have a real person in mind when you create anything it takes on a different tone and a different character. You’re actually able to touch more people at a different level, their hearts and minds, than when you try to write something for everyone.
You accomplish the ability to reach everyone when you think about one person.
It was a happy accident and something that was never intended to be a published book. But when you do something like that and connect with people then good things happen.
Why is it important for them to read it?
This book is important right now for a couple of reasons. It’s about a hard-working family man in the midwest who loses his job when his company closes. He’s in an idyllic setting and everything is going along hunky-dory when his company closes. And he has to face that challenge. He doesn’t want to uproot his family and he’s forced to take a job that really isn’t a job. He struggles mightily with it. He’s not very good at it. And through his struggles he discovers a way through that allows him to go through a personal transformation.
I think a lot of people right now are faced with that particular challenge. There’s a lot of displacement going on around the world right now. People are taking new directions not because they’ve chosen to but they have been forced upon them.
If you view those kinds of setbacks and crises as opportunities.There’s a zen concept called kiki. The characters are of two sets. One is danger and another is opportunity. If we can change our mindset to see opportunity to take new directions then good things can happen. It’s not easy especially when you’re trying to survive the day.
I believe there are a huge number of people in transition either involuntarily or voluntarily and they are looking for a little bit of hope and optimism to see a way through.
And this is what this book can deliver.
Erika Andersen, coined a phrase reasonable aspiration or hoped-for goal*, in her book Being Strategic. What was your reasonable aspiration or hoped-for goal with writing this book?
The hoped-for goal was ‘hope’. It’s one of hope and optimism. That’s an important sentiment right now.
With any luck people reading this will get a little lift and uplift.
But along with that optimism comes a couple of practical toe-holds or guide rails to go with that hope.
What are a couple of those practical toe-holds?
There are a lot. The notion that you mentioned I coach and practice kaizen. The notion that we allay our fears by taking small steps. By making smaller changes towards a goal of even if you’ve been radically moved from one position to another, moving forward with smaller steps that are pallatable with smaller measurable targets that allow us to move forward in a positive way without shaking up our existence too much.
It’s essentially an amalgam of Japanese practices combined with zen concepts which come from design, architecture and gardening, combined with a little bit of western neuroscience all delivered in the form of a character’s story who gets wisdom delivered from rather unlikely sources.
What metrics will show you are making progress?
The metrics here aren’t quantifiable ones. I’m looking for anecdotal ones, evidence that people are handing this book to others to read as a gift, a gesture, sharing those stories on Facebook or on my sight or Twitter.
I’m looking for the feedback, the resident core that people are getting back to me with feedback that says “Look I’m giving this book to someone who is going through the same kind of setbacks as Andy Harmon”, the main character in the book.
Those are the kinds of feedback I’m looking for.
You write:
The lessons of The Shibumi Strategy comes not in the form of answers but in the form of questions. It is in the process of how we address these questions that we awaken.
I loved it.
Most business leaders are less interested in process than in answers. Impatience, worried, anxious describe many. But you’re saying a process of meaningful change comes through a process of questions, how we form those questions and then how we address them. Why should an impatient, worried, anxious business leader invest the time in starting this process and making it a habit?
Let me answer it this way. When you’re frantic and impatient and in panic mode sometimes you end up doing things that worsen your situation.
I learned a very important lesson a couple of years ago from a gentleman named Boyd Matson. He’s an adventure journalist, photographer, with National Geographic. He taught me a very important lesson. That lesson is this:
- How to stand still when the hippos charge.
The point is doing something is not always better than doing nothing. For instance, the practical application here is you come up on a momma hippo at a watering hole with a calf and she decides she doesn’t like the way your hair’s falling that day and she decides to charge. If you run, you die.
All of us at a business level have a 2000 lb beast barreling down at us whether it’s a competitor or the economy. . If we are frantic and if we indulge in our flight or fight responses hard-wiring sometimes we can worsen things. If you stand still when the hippos charge you can survive.
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That’s a metaphorical answer to your question of why should a leader decide to ‘don’t just do something, stand there.' And consider asking questions. It is when you’re in a dangerous business setting taht you do begin to ask yourself some questions.
- Why is this happening to us?
- Why is my business going under?
- Why is it happening to me?
- Why isn’t my plan working?
Those are all relevant questions. And if you jump to the solution you can have end up happening to you what happens when you run from a charging hippo.
It’s the difference between playing whack-a-mole and chess. If you watch a chess tournament there’s not a lot of action going on. There’s a lot of thinking and strategizing for that. Do we have time for that? I don’t think we cannot have time for that.
What is the Shibumi process?
Let me explain a little bit. Let me unwrap Shibumi a bit. Shibumi is a word without definition or tanslation. It has come to mean the best of everything and nothing. There’s a zen-ness to the notion of Shibumi. Shibumi is effortless effectiveness, elegant simplicity, understated beauty.
I ran across the term when I read a novel titled Shibumi: A Novel, by the author Trevanian. It was a spy novel. The character in there was pursuing Shibumi which is the height of personal excellence with effortless effectiveness.
And that word always struck me as interesting. Because I did spend some time with a Japanese company, 8 years. I got indoctrinated into that Japanese and zen methods and ideals.
And the ability to achieve that state of effortless effectiveness you can actually unpack it and unravel. But it doesn’t happen easily or happen overnight. I bet at some point the listeners in your audience had that aha moment or that feeling of flow, if you will, which is sorta inadequate to describe the Shibumi experience or ‘being in the zone’.
But, the process of how you replicate that experience is like the hero’s journey. You commit to something. You prepare for it. You struggle greatly with it to the point that you are up against a wall, banging your head up against the wall. And you step back. You take a break.
And it’s generally speaking when you take a break , you shift your perspective and a tremor of breakthrough happens. And if you can continue with those little breakthroughs you can transform your life.
And that’s sorta the process of the heroic journey. Commit to something. Prepare for it. Your plan isn’t going to work. But you struggle with it anyway.
Take a break when it doesn’t work. Think about things in a different way. And low behold a breakthrough happens. Maybe you’re in the shower. Maybe you’re taking a shower. Maybe you’re taking a walk. It’s probably unrelated to the problem you’re struggling with when you get this aha moment or eureka moment and you try and unpack and unravel it and find the DNA to it and it transforms your whole way of thinking. That’s the Shibumi process.
There’s nothing straight ahead or linear about it. It’s what we all do in life. It’s just that we have to keep our radar screens open for our breakthrough tremors, our aha moments, and string them together and try and understand what led to it in the first place and try and repeat it. And follow that process.
If I'm hearing your correctly, what you’re offering is a systematic process to create a series of small heroic journeys throughout our lives so that we have a constant process of meaningful change and progress is more consistent and faster?
The goal isn’t to actively seek out a radical shift or turn the world upside down change. The words meaningful change, if you were to parse that phrase create and meaningful and change...create is putting out there something that wasn’t out there before, irrespective of magnitude or scale. Meaningful has to do with our purpose. It’s outwardly focused. It’s helping others. The notion of change is ongoing. It’s continuity by constantly moving forward. Not changing to be different but changing to move forward.
Yeah, it’s a constant moving forward with little ideas in a story fashion, in a journey fashion, that weave this arc that I call a leadership arc or heroic arc.
If you look back over it, the most powerful learning experiences or the times that have been most meaningful to you, they’re not necessarily big change the world things. Whether it’s with your son or your daughter or your teacher or coach. Little, little moments that are packed with meaning. And it’s the ability to reproduce those.
I don’t know that there’s necessarily the system to it. But there’s certainly an arc to it.
Clearly there are some who are able to go through this hero’s arc and we’re able to celebrate them and say Wow! I so appreciate those people.
And, we’re all going through this journey in our own way.
Where in this journey do most of us seem to stumble?
I think it’s when we try to do too much. When we try to hit the grand slam homerun when we should try to be getting on base. When we go for the hail mary pass when the situation calls for us to get the first down. Invariably what happens when we swing too far and wide without thinking about the impact when that happens. We end up with too many strikeouts and too many misses, turn the ball over to someone else and we’re out of control. We’re out of control because we decided to put ourselves out of control. That’s where the stumble happens.
The stumble happens not because we don’t know what we’re doing or we’re not smart people. It’s sometimes that things seem so radical, the situations seem so dire that the situations appear to call for a dire response. That’s where I think we fall down.
The challenge is calming down, quieting the mind. That’s actually one of the Shibumi dimensions of stillness or quietude. It is where our best creativity comes. When we have quieted our mind and quieted our bodies and given our selves a chance to take a breath and take a step, a single step.
That’s where we fall down. It’s when we try to create the world-shattering killer ap, change the world, boil the ocean, in a single master stroke.
I’m assuming then that since companies are a grouping of individuals that they stumble in much the same ways. They try to hit home runs, find a single solution for all their problems.
I think there’s the same stumble point. I think there’s a killer-ap mentality out there. Too often I work with organizations that don’t want to be bothered with the little ideas. They want to jump the curb. There is a time and place when you should jump the curb. But it happens when you find incrementally better ways to do something and there comes a point where the next leap, the step is the same size but the outcome is much greater.
I’ll share an experience. Toyota worked tirelessly for years getting better, getting better. And then they launched their luxury series, the Lexus. This was 21 years ago. It didn’t take very long before Lexus was the leading luxury name-plate.
Painting with a big broad brushstroke here but for the last 20-30 years our economy has focused on efficiency. It’s been all about lean operations, Six Sigma, cost cutting, off-shoring. All that’s been built on an organizational hierarchy of top-down, command and control, me-boss you - worker mentality. That’s entrenched deeply in companies from top to bottom now.
Interestingly enough that’s exactly the situations the main character is up against. The only option available for the main character really isn’t a job. It’s a desk and a phone. There’s no salary, no benefits. He has to make something happen in a top-down move the metal or your out mentality. He struggles with it.
He can’t fit within the situation very well. It goes against everything he’s been taught in his previous role in selling.
He’s got goals and best-laid plans. None of it works. None of it works in the system he faces.
And he’s forced to get perspective when his boss tells him to take a break, take a day off. And he does and when he does he finds a solution that allows him to work within that system but in a different way.
When you have a new idea you have two choices. Work within the system ‘cause that’s the box. Or step outside that box, change the system.
Most of us don’t have the power to change the system. So, we have to figure out how to work within the system. It’s not about a huge change. There’s a loophole, a niche, there’s a way that lets us work within the box, that allows us to have a great outcome.
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The answer to your question is to change the mindset of your people to always thinking outside the box and thinking of those great big ideas to refocus their attention inside the box and look for little inroads.
The more there are these little inroads you can get, by team by department, there is an organic growth that happens inside that company.
I’ve seen it happen again and again with companies. They start small. They try it with a team as an experiment. Allow people to think a bit and to take charge and try it. Generally speaking they are shocked by the very low-cost ideas that actually change the outcome and the climate of the organization.
Talk about top-down! I worked for a long-time with the LA Police Department. Paramilitary org. Trust me, command-and-control is synonymous with the LA PD. Yet, we started very small, in an area of the operation, the jail and we grew from there.
It is possible. Did we change the system? No, But we found a lot of ideas in that rather target-rich environment to improve the system.
Fantastic. How long have you worked with the LA Police Department?
I worked with them from 2004 to 2006 under the banner of Toyota. I got to work all the factions. I worked with the detectives. I worked with narcotics. I worked with the jail operations. I worked with notorious internal affairs, bureau of standards, confidential informants. I learned to shoot a gun. I went on ride alongs and helicopter missions.
After I left Toyota I kept working with them for another 18 months. I spent a good chunk of time with that organization. And if you can make meaningful change there you can make meaningful change anywhere.
I was talking with a friend of mine who lives overseas. I described much of our country’s process of change as reflecting the lack of activity from our brain’s frontal lobes. I said I think historians will look back at these times and discover there was a shutdown of the frontal lobes on a near national level. You write a bit about this. You talk about our brain’s Amygdala. What is the Amygdala and why’s it important to a process of meaningful change.
Which stage of the Shibumi process stills the amygdala? How do we still it and allowing thinking and creativity to gain ground in our day?
Well, this sorta gets back to the whole what to do when the hippos charge thing. We are hard-wired, the amygdala is where the fight or flight response is contained. There’s this funny thing that happens when we try to change anything. It sets off the fear mechanism. It sets off that fight or flight mechanism.
If someone presents a new idea immediately this resistance sets in. Oh, that won’t work or We can’t do that. That’s just the brain’s resistance to change.
The smaller the change the less that gets set off. And it’s the big radical changes that ends up paralyzing us in terms of our creativity. Because it’s connected to our creative zone. When fear is present we generally are not as creative as we could be. It gets in the way of our creativity and our ingenuity.
We have to find ways to stem that, to temper that reaction. That’s why kaizen or change through small steps is so effective. You can be creative in small ways that it doesn’t set off that fear, fight or flight reaction.
Isn’t it interesting that it’s always our ideas that seem great to us when we come up with them? But when you present them to someone else they think of umpteen reasons, nine ways to Sunday, why that won’t work. That’s just the good ol’ resistance to change.
And the way around that is to think smaller, sometimes.
Where in the Shibumi process does the amygdala get stilled?
The ability to quiet the mind is an acquired skill. The process of kaizen helps.
But there comes a point on a personal level where we need to do two things. Quiet our minds and then take a break from routine.
The two concepts are tied together. One is our ability to take a mental break. One is our ability to take a physical break.
Boston Consulting Group did a 4-year experiment where each week they required these experimental teams to experiment with a new way of working. That new way of working wasn’t that radical. It was simply that they weren’t supposed to work. They weren’t allowed to work one evening of each week.
Management consultants work 80- 100 hours a week.
The big huge experiment was scheduled required time-off one evening a week. You cannot work past 6 PM.
That doesn’t seem so radical or that much a break. You weren’t allowed to talk to your co-workers, no email, no blackberry, no nothing. You had to just not work.
And it was extremely difficult for the consultants. That means I’m going to have to work harder on the weekend. Or I’m going to be left out of the loop on something. They didn’t like. It ran against everything they were about in their mad dash to move up the ladder.
But after 4 years of experimenting with a few teams, Boston Consulting Group is rolling it out on a firm-wide basis. That one little break from their routine to come up with more creative ideas, to work better as a team, to have better client results, to have better intra-team communications just from that little break. It allowed them to be better, to do more, by working less.
One of the most studied groups in neuroscience are Buddhist monks. They study the adepts those with over 10,000 hours of meditation practice. The reason they study them is they exhibit abnormally high levels of gamma brain waves.
Only recently have neuro-scientists figured out, you know the legendary eureka, the aha moments, that’s what scientists call the sudden insights way of solving a problem, there’s science to it. What is required for it is quiet mind.
Gamma brain waves are the brain waves that immediately precede that eureka moment. They’ve done study after study where they give people tough problems and then they give them a break. Some were allowed to sleep. Those that had the break came back and solved the problem with more accuracy, more frequency and do it quicker.
They study monks because they have abnormally high gamma brain waves.
Your brain needs quiet before its storm.
Another quick study. Tony Schwartz wrote a book called The Way We’re Working Isn’t Working. He did a little bit of work with the scientific community and found there’s a rhythm to our bodies. Go past 90 minutes and our efficiencies and effectiveness and creativity begin to wane. So he wrote his book in half the time using a 90-minute cycle. He would work for 90 minutes, take a break and then work for another 90 minutes. It took him half the time to write this book as it did his others.
That particular cycle I have worked into my own life and I highly recommend it. Try this. Work for 90 minutes even if you’re doing sports or learning to play tennis. After 90 minutes take a break. Go for a run or go for a walk. Listen to some music. Take a break even if you’re in the middle of something. Take that break.
You’ll be amazed at how much better you feel, how much more productive and energized you’ll feel at the end of the day. 4 90-minute cycles with breaks in - between far more productive than working 8 hours and taking a long break.
This takes us to our next question. The act of reflection and how to execute it within a business environment. I don’t know of many companies that have time for much reflection. For critiques, for performance evaluations, for comparing real vs projected. But reflection. How does a company begin to incorporate time for reflection into their daily routine?
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Reflection meaning not staring off into space and considering the meaning of life, but having a purpose.
Generally speaking, here in the US we only reflect when things go bad oftentimes to place blame. But, there’s no real learning in that.
Children in Japan are taught reflection as soon as they begin school. It’s irrespective of what that outcome is.
It’s basically 3 questions:
- What did you plan to happen?
- What happened?
- Why?
And let’s stay with that metaphor and let’s say here in the US your child comes home with 1 A’s, 2 B’s 2 C’s and a D. Generally speaking we high-five on the A’s. And don’t give it much thought. But, what happened on that D, man? Why did you get that D? What’s going on there? Well, get in your room and work harder.
And good job on the C’s and B’s, work harder and maybe bump up them up to be B’s and A’s.
There’s not a lot of reflection on that outcome.
The child in Japan is taught to reflect on the A. Did you intend to do that? What did you do different?
That’s a gap.
Here in the US when we exceed an expectation we do the end-zone dance. We don’t try to unpack. Why did we overshoot that mark? Shouldn’t we be meeting these expectations.
A number of companies do this. BP, believe it or not has a robust process for reflection and review. [I’m struggling with this] It’s patterned after the Armys After-Action-Review.
An after-action-review is a safe haven for learning. It’s a regular meeting that occurs after every milestone has occurred, not just at the end of a deployment. You’re just rying to answer those three questions:
- What did you plan to happen?
- What happened?
- Why?
It’s about goals and tasks. It’s not about placing blame. It’s not an outside facilitated thing. It can’t happen without everyone present. You’re just trying to answer three questions.
The process of Kata or routine also requires 3 questions. What are they? Why are they important?
Kata is just routine. It comes from martial arts. Everybody remembers good ol’ Karate Kid when he’s learning wax-on, wax-off. The basic karate moves. When you have a routine, you create a standard, follow it and find a better way. That’s your basic routine.
But what any good kata or routine does is provide a framework and basis for action that allows us to be more creative, more innovative and more improvisational.
I’m at the point where I cannot think of a kata or idealoop. I go through 4 cycles:
A recent guest here was Dave Rendall, author of the Freak Factory. He talks about finding the right spot, the right fit where we can showcase our strengths. You talk about the inner person and the outer person and the need for harmony between the two. How does that, harmony of inner and outer, work in a business setting?
It’s the ability to make a strong connection to the core values of a system. You know when things aren’t right. The character in the book knows things aren’t right because all the values his boss displays go against his own. It causes a huge stress for him, in his life, in his work. He doesn’t believe in the same things. He doesn’t believe in treating people the same way.
It causes stress. And he’s outta synch. And what happens is one of two things. One: we grin and bear it because we think we have no choice. Or we de-select and leave and look for another opportunity.
One of the great things I’m reading right now is a great book. It’s called Peak: How Great Companies Get Their Mojo from Maslow. It’s by Chip Conley. Forward is by Tony Hsieh of Zappos.
Wonderful book in line with meaning and meaningful change. Intrinsic motivation and self-worth and the ability for us to create that inner and outer harmony. We belive in the task and the mission of the organization and what we’re working for and the people in the organization have divergent views, perhaps. But they’re aligned with the same basic values and principles.
Do you have an example of company that re-aligned with its core values after having become disconnected?
A great example is Toyota. I think everybody is aware of what happened with Toyota this year. Much of it media-driven. The Congressional hearings and irrespective that no one has been able to duplicate the problem of sudden acceleration, the leaders of Toyota say that they lost their way. They grew too fast. They took their eye off the basic things that got them here in the first place. And that’s the great danger in any organization. Toyota calls it big-company syndrome, big-company disease.
But they have righted the ship. They have re-doubled their efforts. They still to this day are digging to understand how even one instance have possibly occurred under their watch.
It happens to the best of us. But there are ways for us to get back on track.
You’re a leader. Leaders are readers. Jim Rohn said that. What are you reading for work or play?
I just finished reading a great book by Steven Shapiro, an innovation consultant. It’s called Personality Poker and it comes with a deck of cards.
Where Good Ideas Come From by Steven Johnson...by the way I review books on a weekly basis for Open Forum.
Resonate: Present Visual Stories that Transform Audiences, by Nancy Duarte. It’s about how you craft a story for presentation. Just a great book that everyone should read because all of us have to pitch an idea sometime.
I Live in the Future & Here's How It Works, by Nick Bilton, NY Times blogger.
Those are some of the books I’ve been reading that I get inspiration from.
Mr. Shapiro sent me a copy of his book. We’re coordinating a schedule with him for December. I agree, it’s an excellent book.
Where are you speaking where we can come hear you?
You can hear me do a little bit on my website: Matthew E May. I just spoke at a Ted Salon in London. It was hosted by Frog Design. Hopefully it will be online soon.
Let’s revisit where we can find you on the web?
The easiest way, the hub of everything is my website.
Thank you Matthew!